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Ambassador Tian Xuejun Is Interviewed by the Wall Street Journal 驻南非大使田学军接受美国《华尔街日报》专访
Q: I’m quite intrigued with the
concept of the “Chinese Dream” and have noted Ambassador Tian’s article in “The
Thinker” linking this notion to an “African Dream”. What is the “Chinese Dream”?
Why should Africans embrace this concept?
问：我对中国梦的概念非常感兴趣。田大使近期也在南非《思想者》杂志撰文，讨论了中国梦和非洲梦的相同之处。什么是中国梦？为什么非洲人民要认同这个理念？
A: The Chinese Dream is a concept
proposed by the new Chinese leadership. What are the contents of the Chinese
Dream? To be simple, it is for the prosperity of the country, the rejuvenation
of the nation and the happiness of the people. The Chinese Dream is an open
dream; it’s a dream for win-win cooperation. Against the background of
globalization, the Chinese people need the understanding and support of the
international community to realize the Chinese dream. We cannot realize the
dream without exchanges and cooperation with the rest of the world, including
Africa. At the same time, while attaining the Chinese Dream, the Chinese people
will play our role in promoting and make our due contribution to world peace
and development. I have visited 27 African countries and have been working in
South Africa for nearly two years. My personal feeling is that African countries
and people all have their dreams, which are the great rejuvenation of Africa,
the prosperity of the country and the wellbeing of the people. The African
Union has a strategy for the coming 50 years, and South Africa has a NDP for
the coming 20 years. Last year the Embassy hosted an open-day event and invited
students from primary and secondary schools. They shared with us their dreams
by writing them on the “Dream Cards”. Their Dreams are innocent and cute, but
also very impressive and I was deeply moved. I think all these are the
embodiment of the greater African Dream. Many statesmen, experts and scholars
from Africa believe that the Chinese Dream and the African Dream are closely
linked and highly complementary to each other. I fully agree. A review of the
history tells us that China and Africa had similar experience in the past. And
if you look at the current situation, you can see that China and Africa are
both faced with similar development tasks that we both need to develop the
economy and improve people’s livelihood. For a long time, China and Africa have
been offering each other mutual understanding, support and assistance, and we
have formed a community of common destiny. This idea of a community of common
destiny was proposed by Chinese President Xi Jinping during his visit to Africa
last year and was recognized by many African leaders. China is willing to join
hands with Africa to realize our respective dreams and contribute to peace and
development of the world.
答：中国梦是中国新一届领导集体提出的一个重要思想。中国梦的内涵是什么？简单的说，就是要实现国家富强、民族振兴和人民幸福。中国梦是一个开放的、合作的、共赢的梦。在全球化背景下，中国人民要实现中国梦，离不开国际社会的理解和支持，也离不开与外界的交流和合作，其中也包括非洲。同时，中国人民在实现中国梦的过程中，也会为世界的和平和发展发挥应有的作用，做出应有的贡献。我访问过非洲27个国家，来南非工作也近两年时间。我的感觉是，非洲国家和人民也有自己的梦想，简单来说就是实现非洲的伟大复兴，实现国家富强、人民安居乐业。非盟已经制定了今后50年发展战略，南非也制定了今后20年国家发展规划。去年使馆举办开放日，邀请了很多南非中小学生，他们在使馆准备的“梦想墙”上写下了自己的梦想，非常天真可爱，我也非常感动。我认为这些都是非洲梦的生动体现。许多非洲的政要、专家、学者认为中国梦和非洲梦息息相关、高度契合，我非常赞同。看看历史，中国和非洲有着相似的历史遭遇。看看当前，中国和非洲都面临相似的发展任务，都需要发展经济、改善民生。长期以来，中国和非洲相互理解、相互支持、相互帮助，已经结成了不可分割的命运共同体。这个命运共同体的概念也是习近平主席去年访问非洲时提出的，得到了很多非洲国家领导人的认同。中国愿意和非洲共同努力，实现各自梦想，为世界和平和发展做出自己的贡献。
I understand you were also asking
that why China talks about the Chinese Dream in Africa. I want to emphasize
that China sees Africa as our good friend, good partner and good brother. The
process during which China-Africa relationship develops is also the process
during which we realize our respective dreams. When visiting Africa in March
last year, President Xi Jinping summarized China’s Africa policy in the
following: sincerity, real benefits, affinity and good faith. By sincerity we
mean that we treat African people as our sincere and real friends. True
friendship is more precious than gold. We treat each other with equality and
respect, and we sincerely wish that Africa could be better and better. By real
benefits, we emphasize on the practical nature of China-Africa cooperation. We
honor our words with real actions and we always achieve what we’ve promised. By
affinity, we say that Chinese and African people have a natural feeling of
kinship towards each other. In the future, we are going to work to bring our
people even closer. By good faith, we mean that we are honest and frank in
facing up to the problems that may occur in China-Africa cooperation, and we
will appropriately handle these problems according to the spirit of mutually
beneficial and win-win cooperation. This is not only what we say, but what we
do, and we will do it better. At the same time, we hope the international
community could also care more about Africa, support and assist Africa, so that
the continent can rise out of turbulence and poverty and truly become the
future star of the world.
我理解，你也想问，中国为什么要在非洲宣传中国梦？我想强调的是，中国把非洲看成自己的好朋友、好伙伴、好兄弟，中非关系发展的进程也是中非各自实现梦想的进程。习主席去年3月访非时，对中国对非政策用四个字概括：真、实、亲、诚。“真”就是中国对待非洲人民的感情是真诚的，中国和非洲是真诚的朋友，真诚的朋友比黄金更宝贵。我们平等相待、相互尊重，而且我们真诚希望非洲能够越来越好。“实”就是对非合作实实在在，非常务实。中国会做到言必信、行必果。“亲”就是我们感到，中非人民有一种天然的亲近感，我们还要进一步加强中非人民之间的亲近感情，使中非人民越走越近。“诚”就是对待中非合作过程中出现的一些问题，我们坦诚面对，而且本着互利共赢的精神来妥善处理。我们不仅这么说，也是这么做的，而且会做得越来越好。同时我们也希望国际社会能更多的关心非洲、支持非洲、帮助非洲，使非洲结束动乱、贫困，早日成为世界上的明日之星。
Q: Thank you for putting in a
framework for me and helping me to understand what you mean by the connection
between the Chinese Dream and the African Dream. Could you give me an example
that you think captures the character that Africa and China sharing this Dream?
In South Africa you have an example of the students. Do you have other
examples?
问：感谢您向我解释了中非梦的共通之处。您能否给我举几个这方面的事例？比如您刚才说的参加使馆开放日的学生分享梦想这样的例子。
A: President Xi Jinping said that
people all wish for good and happy life. And it is people’s wish that drives us
to work harder. Just now I talked about the Chinese Dream. I also touched upon
the African Dream, which is about the rejuvenation of the continent, the
development of the country and the wellbeing of the people. I believe these are
consistent with the contents of the Chinese Dream. Former Deputy
Secretary-General of The United Nations and former Foreign Minister of
Tanzania, Dr Asha-Rose Migiro, wrote an article stating that the Chinese Dream
converges the African Dream. I think the article is worth reading.
答：习近平主席说，人民都希望过上美好、幸福的生活。人民的愿望就是我们奋斗的目标。我刚才提到中国梦的内涵，非洲梦的内涵，就是非洲大陆的复兴、国家的发展、人民安居乐业，这些和中国梦的内涵都是一致的。我记得坦桑尼亚前外长写了一篇文章《中国梦与非洲梦：实现共同发展》，说中国梦和非洲梦息息相关，我认为写的非常好。
Q: China and Africa may both have
dreams. But China’s stage of development is more advanced than most of the
African countries. Is the talk of the African Dream now an effort to change the
conversation or shift the controversy of China’s investment in certain
countries that China is just investing out in Africa? People are calling this
neo-colonialism.
问：的确，中国和非洲都有梦想，但是中国发展得比很多非洲国家都要好很多。关于中国梦和非洲梦的表述是否是为了改变对于中国在非洲投资的批评和争议？有的人将中国在非洲的投资行为称作新殖民主义。
A: China and African countries
are all developing countries. Although China has developed remarkably in recent
years and is now at a different stage of development from African countries, we
believe China and Africa’s development are highly complementary. We think China’s
development is an opportunity for Africa, and China’s development will further
support Africa’s development. Not only we think in this way, many African
countries share the idea. For example, many friends from Africa told me that,
under the influence of the international financial crisis and the European
sovereign debt crisis, South Africa’s economic development has been under huge
pressure. But China’s economic development in recent years has greatly boosted
and helped South Africa’s economic development. China has been SA’s largest
trading partner country for 4 consecutive years, and last year our bilateral
trade volume reached US$65.15 billion, accounting for 1/4 of the total
China-Africa trade volume. You also know that Johannesburg stock market changes
closely with China’s economic indicators, showing how close this economic
connection is.
答：首先，中国和非洲国家都是发展中国家，尽管中国这些年取得很大发展，与非洲处在不同发展阶段，但是中国和非洲的发展互补性很强。我们认为中国的发展是非洲的机遇，中国的发展会进一步帮助、支持非洲的发展。不仅我们这么认为，很多非洲国家也这么认为。比如南非，有许多朋友说，南非受到国际金融危机、特别是欧洲债务危机的影响，外部坏境给它的经济发展的压力很大，但是这些年中国经济的快速发展为南非经济的发展提供了很大的机遇，也促进了南非经济的发展。中国已经连续四年成为南非最大的贸易伙伴国，去年两国贸易额达到651.5亿美元，是中非贸易额的四分之一，你看约翰内斯堡的股票市场紧紧地跟着中国的经济数字发生变化，就充分体现了这种关系。
I know some media are saying that
China’s assistance to Africa is only for Africa’s market and resources; they
say China is practicing neo-colonialism in Africa. But I think these
allegations are absurd. One reason might be that they don’t know much about
China-Africa cooperation; or they might have other agendas. In fact, for a long
time, under the framework of South-South cooperation, and in the spirit of
win-win cooperation, China has provided Africa great assistance and support,
mainly targeting economic and social development and people’s wellbeing. You
have been to many other African countries, and I think you are aware of the
many China-assisted infrastructure projects in Africa, roads, railways, power
stations, bridges, etc. These projects have improved Africa’s investment
environment. Also China has invested in Africa some production projects in
automobile equipment, home appliances and leather processing, creating jobs for
Africa and improving the continent’s ability to develop by itself. Thirdly,
China has sent many agricultural experts to Africa, and helped built many
agricultural demonstration centers and agricultural skills promotion center.
These are all effort to help train agricultural experts for Africa, improve
African countries’ agricultural productivity, and contribute to Africa’s food
security. Fourthly, China has assisted in the construction of many hospitals,
schools and stadiums in Africa. Before I came to South Africa, I was learnt that
there were 30 hospitals under construction in Africa with China’s assistance
and would be soon completed. And you know there are many more stadiums and
schools. All these have improved local people’s health, sanitary, education and
culture conditions. Starting from 1963, China has sent to 48 African countries
nearly 19,000 medical personnel and treated more than 200 million patients.
China has also provided Africa a large number of government scholarships to
help train African talents. I wish to give you an example. The fifth
Ministerial Conference of FOCAC was held in 2012 and I was there for the
meeting. The Conference proposed that from 2012 to 2015, China will provide
18,000 government scholarships to African countries and help train 30,000
talents in different areas for African countries. In addition, we have been
actively participating in the peace-keeping missions in Africa. Currently there
are 1,800 Chinese peace keepers working on the continent, the largest number
among the 5 Permanent members of the UN Security Council. This is our contribution
to peace of Africa.
对于有一些媒体说，中国对非援助仅仅是为了获取非洲的市场和资源，或者说中国在非洲搞新殖民主义，我认为这是非常荒唐的。这可能是因为他们对中非合作不了解。也可能他们是别有用心的。首先，实际上，长期以来，在南南合作的框架下、本着互利共赢的精神，中国向非洲提供了大量的援助和支持，主要集中在经济、社会和民生领域。你在非洲也去过很多国家，应该知道中国援建了非洲大量的公路、铁路、电站、桥梁等基础设施，改善了非洲的投资环境。第二，中国在非洲投资建设了汽车装备、家电制造、皮革加工等一些生产型项目，帮助非洲创造就业，也提高了非洲自主发展能力。第三，中国向非洲派了大量农业专家，建立了许多农业技术示范中心和农业技术推广站，帮助非洲培养农业方面人才，提高非洲国家农业生产力，为保障非洲的粮食安全作出贡献。第四，中国在非洲援建了大量的医院、学校和体育场。我来南非工作之前了解到，我们当时正在非洲援建30所医院，很快就要建成。还有很多的体育场、学校。这些为改善当地百姓的卫生、教育和文化生活条件作出了贡献。从1963年开始，我们向非洲48个国家派出了接近19000人次的医疗人员，诊治了2亿多的非洲患者。中方还向非洲提供了大量政府奖学金，帮助他们培养人才。举个例子，2012年召开了中非合作论坛第五届部长级会议，提出自
2012至2015年，中国将向非洲提供1.8万个政府奖学金，帮助培养3万名各类人才。另外，我们还积极参与非洲的维和行动，现在在非洲大陆上有1800名中国维和人员，是安理会五常中最多的国家，我们为非洲的和平做出了贡献。
People talk about
neo-colonialism. But what is colonialism? I think people of Africa and China
are both very clear about colonialism. It is to open the gates to Africa by
gun-powers, plundering Africa’s resources, and making the people suffer from
oppression and exploitation. I was there for the Breakfast Meeting between
President Xi Jinping and leaders of 15 or 16 African countries last year.
African leaders at the meeting said that the African people know too well what
colonialism is. Instead, China’s assistance is sincere and China is Africa’s
sincere friend. As for China’s cooperation with Africa in energy and resources
fields, to put it in our African people’s words, it is China who buys energy
and resources from Africa with fair price under the international rules and
practice. It is China that helped increase the value of Africa’s resources and
energy, give African countries more funding for development, enhance their
ability of self-development and give them greater say in international
bargaining.
有人提出新殖民主义。什么是殖民主义？我想非洲人民、中国人民都很清楚，就是用炮舰打开非洲大门，掠夺非洲资源，被殖民国家人民饱受压迫和剥削。我参加了去年3月份习近平主席和十五、六位非洲领导人举行的早餐会。非洲领导人说，对于殖民主义，我们非洲人民有切身体验，我们知道什么是殖民主义。中国对我们的帮助是真诚的，是我们真诚的朋友。至于中国和非洲的资源能源合作，用非洲朋友的话说，中国按照国际规则、用公平价格从非洲购买，提高了非洲资源、能源的价值，让非洲国家获得发展资金，提高自我发展能力，也获得了在国际上议价的能力。
I then come to the three
characteristics of China’s assistance to Africa and China-Africa cooperation.
First of all, China’s assistance to Africa and China-Africa cooperation is
all-rounded and comprehensive. It covers all African countries and all areas including
development, peace, people’s wellbeing and security. Second, China believes in
the old saying that rather than giving people fish, it is more important to
share with them how to fish. We help improve Africa’s wellbeing and enhance
their ability to develop by itself. Third, China honors every promise it has
made, and will honestly complete, or even exceed, what we’ve promised. For
example, we have completed all the measures promised by previous FOCAC
meetings.
你从我的介绍也可以看出，中国对非援助和合作有以下三个特点：一、中国对非援助和合作是全方位的，覆盖非洲所有国家，涵盖发展、和平、民生、安全所有领域。二、我们不仅授人以鱼、而且授人以渔，帮助非洲改善民生，提高自我发展能力。三
、中国守信誉，承诺的事情一定会办到、一定会办好，比如，历届中非合作论坛中方承诺的事情都全部完成了。
Q: You’ve talked about the
misunderstanding that people don’t understand what China is doing in Africa.
Perhaps this is the fault of the media, the Western Media, they tends to be
very critical about China in Africa. We have seen in the last couple of years
the explosion of China media in Africa, and I went to many African countries
and see many of my Chinese colleagues. I wonder if this is an effort, what we
see the growth of CCTV and Xinhua in Africa, to counterbalance the criticism
you’ve received from the Western media. To foster, perhaps better ties with
African countries that have perhaps been influenced by Western media?
问：国际上关于中非关系的误解，也许是西方媒体的错，他们对中国在非的作用持批判态度。过去几年，中国媒体在非洲快速发展，我在很多非洲国家都见到了来自中国的记者。央视、新华社等中国媒体在非洲的发展是否是为了应对西方媒体对中非合作的批评？是否为了和那些受到西方媒体影响的非洲国家培养更好的关系？
A: China and Africa enjoy a
profound traditional friendship and good cooperation. Especially after we
entered the 21st Century, and with the establishment of FOCAC, China and Africa
has not only enhanced political relations, but also carried out fruitful
cooperation in many other areas in economics and trade, agriculture, health and
personnel training. The cooperation have achieved real results and brought real
benefits to people of both China and Africa. We are all witness to these
achievements and China-Africa relationship has become a good example of
state-to-state relationship. However, for the development of China-Africa
relationship, for China’s Africa policy and for the development and advancement
of African countries, some media have not been objective, comprehensive and
fair in doing their reports. Rather, they wear colored glasses and carry out
biased and negative reports, smearing China-Africa relations and Africa. A
question that many people with vision have been thinking about is that, if we
are to bring China-Africa relationship to a higher level, we need to curb such
subjective assumption and distorted interpretation, enhance mutual trust and
clear misunderstandings. And I also believe that this is very important because
it will help us make international media more democratic. All these years,
China and Africa have enhanced exchanges and cooperation in media and we have
had some achievements. But I don’t think it’s enough, and more needs to be done
and there is still a long way to go. I hope some media could be more objective,
comprehensive and fair in reporting China-Africa relationship and the real stories
of the continent. This is the professionalism of media, the social
responsibility of media, and also a way to show that they are responsible to
their audience and readers.
答：中国和非洲长期以来有着传统友好合作关系，特别是进入21世纪以来，随着中非合作论坛的建立，中非之间除了巩固和加强了政治关系，在经济、贸易、农业、卫生和人力资源培训等方方面面开展了卓有成效的合作，取得了累累硕果，给中非人民带来实实在在的好处，这些大家都看得到，也成了国与国之间良好关系的典范。但是对于中非关系的发展、对于中国对非政策及非洲国家取得的发展和进步，有些媒体没有客观、全面、公正的报道，而是带着有色眼镜进行片面、消极的报道，抹黑中非关系和非洲。中非关系要向更高水平发展，就要遏制此类主观臆断和歪曲解读，增信释疑，这是中非双方有识之士一直在思考的问题。同时我认为，这也是事关国际媒体格局民主化的一个重要问题。这些年，中国和非洲在新闻媒体领域加强了交流和合作，取得了一些成效，但我认为还远远不够，还有许多工作要做，还有很长的路要走。我们希望有些媒体今后能够更加客观、全面、公正地报道中非关系，报道非洲大陆的真实情况，这是新闻媒体的职业道德和社会责任，也是对读者负责的态度。
Q: To achieve this goal, is it
necessary for the government of China and some state-owned media to increase
their investment in local-owned media organizations. I am thinking about the
example of the recent investment of Independent Group by China Development Bank
and CCTV’s investment part. Is this part of the government policy or is this
just a commercial investment?
问：为了实现这一目标，中国政府和国有媒体是否会加大对非洲当地媒体的投资？比如最近中国国家开发银行和央视对南非独立传媒集团的收购？
A: Just now I mentioned that
people are all think about how to change the current situation, and some
companies and media are also working to enhance cooperation. You mentioned
CCTV. CCTV English news has been broadcasting in Africa and many African
friends are understanding and knowing China through CCTV News. You many also
know a private Chinese company doing business in South Africa, Star Times.
Recently it has completed the business rescue of TopTV. It also has business in
many other African countries. The benefits of their operation in Africa are
that they have lowered the cost of African people. With fewer costs, they get
more information. And it also boosted the media development of African
countries. And may I correct you that the companies involved are China
International Television Cooperation and CADFund, and some other Chinese and South
African business partners.
答：为了解决我上面说的这些问题，政府层面在做一些事，一些有识之士、企业、媒体也在探索加强合作。比如央视已经在非洲落地了，很多非洲朋友通过央视英语频道来了解中国的情况。还有一个，你可能也注意到，有一家私营公司四达集团完成了对南非TopTV的商业救赎。四达集团不仅在南非、在非洲很多其他国家也有业务，它在非洲的经营降低了普通民众看电视节目的成本，让他们能看到更多节目。刚才你提到的其实应该是央视国际，它是一个上市的股份制公司，它和一些商业伙伴，不是开发银行是中非合作基金，以及一些当地伙伴进行了商业合作。 |
