李克强总理接受英国《金融时报》总编巴伯专访实录（中英对照）

中文版：李克强总理接受英国《金融时报》总编巴伯专访实录.doc

英文版：Transcript of Premier Li Keqiang’s Interview with Financial Times Editor Lionel.doc

李克强总理接受英国《金融时报》总编巴伯专访实录

Transcript of Premier Li Keqiang’s Interview with Financial Times Editor Lionel Barber

 

2015年3月31日下午，国务院总理李克强在人民大会堂接受英国《金融时报》总编巴伯专访，实录如下：

 

On the afternoon of 31 March 2015, Premier Li Keqiang of the State Council gave an exclusive interview to Lionel Barber, Editor of the Financial Times, at the Great Hall of the People. The transcript is as follows:

 

李克强：很高兴和巴伯先生再次见面。我们去年见面的时候，世界经济复苏发生了新变化，现在还不断有新变化发生。这次与你见面也表明，中国愿意同已经深度融合的世界经济发生密切联系，也愿意在推动世界经济复苏中发挥我们自己的作用。《金融时报》派到中国的记者中文水平很高，如果不见面，很难分辨出来是外国人在说中国话。

 

Li Keqiang: Good to see you again, Mr. Barber. I recall that last year we met at a time when there were new developments in global economic recovery. And now we are still witnessing new dynamics in the global economy. Our meeting today also shows that China is ready for even closer interaction with the global economy, in which it has already become deeply integrated. And China is ready to continue to make its contribution to facilitating the global economic recovery. The correspondent you sent to China speaks Chinese so well that if I do not see him in person, I hardly know that he is a foreigner.

 

巴伯：李总理，很高兴再次来到北京，继续与您进行“战略性”对话。上次与您见面时我们谈到了世界经济面临的风险。我们看到，美国、欧洲、英国以及日本央行推出了非常规货币政策，目的是维持经济增长势头。上次我们对话时您曾经问我，是否认为这些非常规货币政策结束之时世界经济会面临风险。当时我向您表示，我认为风险是可控的。随着美国结束量化宽松政策，您是否赞同我这一看法？

 

Barber: Premier Li, it’s very good to be back in Beijing, resuming our strategic dialogue. I recall in our last conversation, we talked about the risks in the world economy. And we know that the central banks in America, Europe, Britain and Japan are engaged in unconventional monetary policy to maintain economic growth. But in our last conversation, you asked me whether I believe there were risks when this period of unconventional policy ends. And I said I thought they were manageable. Do you share that view as the US prepares to end its quantitative easing?

 

李克强：我目前还是半信半疑。因为在推动量宽政策的时候可能是鱼龙混杂，什么都能够在汪洋大海中生存下来，现在还很难预测一旦量宽政策退出会出现什么样的结果。美国最近对于是否加息，虽然没有更多的争论，对加息的时间也不确定。坦率地讲，实施量宽政策是比较容易的，无非是印票子，但是世界金融危机乃至导致经济复苏低迷的结构性问题怎么解决？还是需要通过结构性改革。在这方面不少国家没有迈出大步子。当然，就像病人生病一样，我们先得给他吊水，打抗生素，否则治病的时间可能都没有了，但是总有一天要撤掉激素，撤掉抗生素，让他自己的肌体能够正常恢复。所以我不反对量宽，但是我认为更重要的还是进行结构性改革。

 

Li Keqiang: I have to say I am half convinced and half doubtful. When the QE is in place, there may be all sorts of players managing to stay afloat in this big ocean. Yet it is difficult to predict now what may come out of it when the QE is withdrawn. And although there is little debate about whether there will be an interest hike in the United States, people are quite uncertain about when this interest hike will take place. Honestly speaking, it is quite easy for one to introduce QE policy, as it is little more than printing money. But what about the structural problems that have led to the global financial crisis and weak economic recovery? We believe one needs to undertake structural reforms. Yet not that many countries have taken significant steps in this direction. This is like treating a patient. We need to give him IV drip and antibiotics. Otherwise, it may cost us the time to cure his disease. But eventually, one has to discontinue the use of antibiotics to allow the patient himself to recover on his own physical strength. So I’m not an outright opposer to QE, but I believe what is more important is the structural reforms.

 

巴伯：我刚刚结束了对东京为期9天的访问，主要考察日本经济采取的一些实验性措施，另外用一个小时采访安倍晋三首相。我想问您的问题是，随着日元和欧元对人民币贬值，您是否担心这会挫伤中国的竞争力，是否会迫使中国采取使人民币贬值的措施？

 

Barber: Premier Li, I just come from Tokyo where I spent nine days in Japan looking closely at their economic experiment. I met with Prime Minister Abe for an hour for an interview. I wonder, are you concerned that the depreciation of the yen and the euro against the RMB means China is less competitive and you may have to devalue in response?

 

李克强：中国一直在推进人民币汇率形成机制改革，要扩大人民币双向浮动的区间，完善以市场供求关系为基础、有管理的汇率制度。一段时间以来，人民币有小幅贬值，但这不是我们自身造成的，可以说是美元走强造成的。现在人民币总体上处于基本稳定的水平。我不希望看到人民币继续贬值，因为我们不能靠贬值来刺激出口，不注重扩大内需，否则中国的经济结构很难得到调整。企业不能仅仅靠或者主要靠人民币贬值来增加出口量，而是应该练“内功”，使自己的产品技术创新，质量有大的提升。另一方面，我们也希望主要经济体加强宏观政策协调，我们不愿意看见货币竞相贬值的状态出现，那会出现货币大战，逼着人民币贬值，我觉得这对世界金融体系不是个好结果。最后可能导致贸易保护主义，阻碍全球化进程，这是我们不希望看到的。

 

Li Keqiang: China has been advancing the reform of the RMB exchange rate formation mechanism to widen the RMB floating band and improve the market-based, managed exchange rate regime. For some time, there has been slight devaluation of the Chinese currency. But this is not because of the steps taken by the Chinese side, but because of a stronger US dollar. I believe the current value of the RMB is basically stable. We don’t want to see further devaluation of the Chinese currency, because we can’t rely on devaluing our own currency to boost export. Instead, what we need is to boost our domestic demand. Otherwise, it will be difficult for us to adjust our economic structure. We don’t think companies in China should mainly rely on a devalued Chinese currency to boost export. Instead, they should focus on enhancing their competitiveness by raising the quality of products and making technological innovations. At the same time, we hope that all major economies will enhance coordination on macroeconomic policies. We don’t want to see a scenario in which major economies trip over each other to devalue their currencies. That will lead to a currency war. And if China feels compelled to devalue the RMB in this process, we don’t think this will be something good for the international financial system. This may ultimately lead to trade protectionism and impede the globalization process. This is something we don’t want to see.

 

巴伯：能不能借这个机会跟您分享一下我访日期间对日中关系的一个较深印象。这是来自日本最高层的信息。我曾多次有机会采访日本领导人，他们传递的信息是日中关系已经有所改善，他们特别提到去年11月习近平主席跟日本首相安倍的会见。您是否赞同他们关于日中关系已经有所改善的想法？这是持久的还是暂时的问题？在今年纪念二战结束70周年以及日本首相将发表有关谈话的时候，两国关系是否会再次出现问题？

 

Barber: Premier Li, may I share with you one clear impression from my visit to Japan regarding Japan-China relations. The message from the highest level with whom I conducted many interviews was that China-Japan relations have improved. There is reference to the meeting between President Xi and Prime Minister Abe. And I wonder whether you think there is improvement, do you agree with that? And whether this is durable or just a pause. And there may be problems ahead, for example around the 70th anniversary and World War II statement that the Japanese government is planning to make.

 

李克强：中日关系目前还处在比较困难的时期。双方有改善的愿望，但是改善要有基础，这个基础的根子还是怎么正确认识二战这段历史，怎么能够汲取这段历史教训，不让战争重演。你在日本的时候也许听到一些人说，战争都过去70年了，跟现在也没什么关系，都是前人的事情，中国怎么老是揪住不放？这不是中方要揪住不放，而是历史不能忘记。70年来人类没有发生大的世界战争，我觉得很重要的是记取了那场愚蠢的战争的教训。根据政治学的一般原则，一个国家的领导人既要继承前人创造的历史成就，也应当承担前人犯下罪行的历史责任，这才真正对一个民族有认同感、责任感。

 

Li Keqiang: The current China-Japan relationship is still in a quite difficult spot. There is wish from both sides for improved relations. But such improvement needs a foundation. The crux of the issue is how to view the history of the Second World War, and whether one can draw lessons from that part of history to ensure that the war will never repeat itself. I suppose when you were in Japan, you may have heard such views that the war took place 70 years ago, and the war was something done by the past generation and has little to do with the current generation of the Japanese people. Why does the Chinese side refuse to let it go? I don’t think this is something about the Chinese refusing to let that part of history go. What we believe is history should not be forgotten. Mankind has successfully kept a large world war at bay in the past 70 years. We believe it is because lessons have been drawn from that part of history in which mankind acted stupidly. It is common knowledge in political science that leaders of a country, while inheriting the achievements made by their predecessors, should also shoulder the responsibilities for crimes committed by past generations. This is how one establishes his true sense of national identity and responsibility.

 

今年是中国人民抗日战争胜利70周年和世界反法西斯战争胜利70周年，世界各国都会有些纪念活动，是一个重要的时刻。在今年“两会”记者会上我讲过，这对中日关系既是检验也是机遇，我们能够以史为鉴就可以面向未来，就有改善两国关系好的机遇。我特别要明确一下，我说的这个“愚蠢的战争”是指军国主义发动的愚蠢的侵略战争，而对于反法西斯战士我们无上尊重。

 

This year marks the 70th anniversary of the victory of the Chinese people’s war of resistance against Japanese aggression and the world anti-Fascist war. Many countries in the world are considering holding activities to mark this important moment. As I said at my press conference a few weeks ago, this is both a test and an opportunity to China-Japan relations. History, if not forgotten, can serve as a guide for the future. That will give us the opportunity for improving China-Japan relations. Just now I mentioned the “stupid war”. What I mean is the stupid war of aggression waged by those militarists. We have the highest respect for all anti-Fascist fighters.

 

巴伯：我能不能问一个关于亚洲基础设施投资银行（以下简称亚投行）的问题。英国似乎开启了各方争前恐后申请加入亚投行的热潮，您对此是否感到高兴？

 

Barber: Could I turn to the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank? Are you very pleased that the British have now started a stampede to join the bank?

 

李克强：我们倡议建立亚投行初衷是，亚洲基础设施特别是互联互通建设还有很大资金需求，需要多个多边融资机构给予支持，而且亚投行是开放透明的，欢迎域外国家参加。英国表态要参与亚投行，中方是欢迎的。我们同英国要进一步建设共同增长的伙伴关系。而且我要强调，亚投行和亚洲开发银行都是并行推动亚洲发展，我们倡导建立这个银行不是要另起炉灶，应该是对国际金融体系的一个补充。中国要维护现行的国际金融体系，并且愿意做其中的建设者。如果这个体系需要改革，中方也愿意与各国一道，共同推动这个体系朝着更加公正、合理、均衡的方向发展。

 

Li Keqiang: The original consideration for putting forward the AIIB initiative is there is a large funding shortfall for infrastructure development in Asia, especially connectivity building. This shortfall needs to be met with the support of several multilateral financing institutions. The AIIB is going to be an open and transparent institution. It welcomes the participation of countries from outside the Asian region. And we welcome British application for joining the bank. China and the UK should continue to work together to develop a partnership for growth. I wish to emphasize that the AIIB and ADB can work in parallel in promoting Asian development. And the initiative of AIIB is not to reinvent the wheel. Rather it is intended to be a supplement to the current international financial system. China wants to work with others to uphold the existing international financial system. And we are ready to continue to play our role in building the current international financial system. And if there is a need for reforming the current system, we are also ready to work with other countries to help make the system more just, reasonable and balanced.

 

巴伯：我在中国常听到这样一个观点：中国在建立战后国际金融体系时没能够充分发挥作用并参与其中，所以现在要打造一个新秩序。我感觉您并不同意这些人的看法。您所要向我传递的信息是，这些机构可以相互补充，亚投行并不是要挑战世界银行和亚洲开发银行。

 

Barber: So Premier, you don’t share the view that I sometimes hear in China that we did not build the liberal post-war financial system, so therefore we have to create a new order. You are saying to me this is complementary, not a challenge, to the World Bank, the Asian Development Bank.

 

李克强：首先我要明确，中国一开始就积极参与战后国际秩序的建设。我们是联合国常任理事国和创始成员国。中国虽然一度比较封闭，但是开放以后一直在国际金融经济体系中发挥自己的作用，而且国际金融经济体系也为中国发展创造了很大的空间。比如，我们和世界银行等机构合作，学习了很多先进理念；我们加入世界贸易组织，使中国企业懂得如何更好地按照国际规则参与竞争。无论是和平还是发展，中国都是现行国际体系的受益者。中国现在仍然是一个发展中国家，实现现代化还有很长的路要走，我们还要继续学习国外先进的技术和管理经验。事实告诉我们，只有互利才能共赢，才能符合多方利益，也符合中国根本利益，所以不存在打破现有秩序的问题。

 

Li Keqiang: Let me first emphasize China was deeply involved in establishing the post-war international order from the very outset. China was a permanent member of the UN Security Council and a founding member of this world body. Although afterwards for some years China closed its door to the outside world, since the day it reopened the door, China has been playing its due role in the international economic and financial systems. At the same time, the current international economic and financial systems have opened up broad dimensions for China’s development. For example, we gained advanced experience from working with the World Bank and other institutions, and our WTO membership has also helped Chinese companies gain deeper knowledge about how they can compete with others under international rules. So China has been a beneficiary of the current international system in terms of both peace and development. Still China is a developing country, and we still have a long way to go before we can achieve modernization. We still need to draw upon the advanced technologies and managerial expertise of other countries. Past progress shows that pursuit of mutual benefit makes all winners. And that is in China’s fundamental interest. So there is no such thing as breaking the existing order.

 

巴伯：您把中国描述成“非常负责任的利益攸关方”，我相信大家都会非常高兴听到这种描述。关于跨太平洋伙伴关系协议（TPP），您是否也持乐观看法？

 

Barber: Sure many will be delighted to hear your description of China as “highly responsible stakeholder”. But do you have the same enlightened view of TPP, the Trans-Pacific Partnership?

 

李克强：中国对TPP也是持开放态度的。我们推动区域全面经济伙伴关系（RCEP）、亚太地区经济一体化进程、中国东盟自贸区和我们将要建立的中韩等自贸区都是并行不悖的，对TPP也同样如此。但是我一直认为，要两个轮子一起转，一个是双边的、区域的自贸体系，可以多彩纷呈，进行各自有特点的安排；另一个是要符合世界贸易组织等多边规则、世界经济全球化和贸易自由化，还应该维护世界贸易组织的基本规则。

 

Li Keqiang: We have an open attitude towards the TPP. China is actively working with others to advance the RCEP negotiation. We believe the RCEP, economic integration in the Asia-Pacific, the China-ASEAN FTA, the China-ROK FTA and so on can all work in parallel. This applies to the TPP too. But all in all, I believe we need to have both wheels in motion in advancing trade. That is: there can be bilateral and regional FTA arrangements with their respective distinctive features. At the same time, there also needs to be full compliance with the WTO rules to promote economic globalization and trade liberalization.